Talk:Fiora/@comment-4131177-20130224114757/@comment-4094339-20130306013857
First off, in what gank do you expect to achieve at least 7 autoattacks? As that's what is necessary to out damage a Q first build when using a full combo. Given that this example is Fiora at level 6, this is early game. There is no way the enemy is pushed that far unless he's stupid or baiting for a countergank. Secondly for the encounter lasted that long, Q would probably be close to up by then if you maxed it first and you would have to calculate using Q again. Which would obviously swing the favor into maxing Q first. Mind you this situation is at level 6 and not at level 9+ when it requires at least 10 auto-attacks to match its burst(see third calculation in my above post). Your scenario of 4-6 additional auto-attack after a full combo (mind you this is already assuming 3 from a full combo) sounds outlandish. It assumes no flash, no kiting and no map awareness from the enemy. And it assumes you have R up every single time you gank. 2.4 of that 3.6 bonus AD ratio is from R. Ganking without R even further increases Q's advantage from 4-6 additional autoattacks to about 7-9 additional autoattacks. R is on a 130 / 120 / 110 cooldown, its not going to be up for all of your ganks. "Ever towerdived someone? You bet your ponies that they will attack you after your ult ends. In those situations, the W dmg is either guaranteed or you have to relie on more sustained damage anyway (chase) as your abilities are on cooldown, which is were the free long sword comes in handy again." Depends on your health and their skills, if its low, then they will autoattack you to kill you first, in which case you shouldn't be towerdiving. If its high then they could just keep running away(or around the tower) or try to kite you since Fiora is melee. In which case Q being on a lower cooldown is helpful to reclose the gap. "You also have to take into account that, if you need to close a larger gap, you sometimes have to Lunge onto a minion in order to close the gap, basically sacrificing 50% of Lunge's damage. If you can permanently idle around an enemy champion in Lunge range, the enemy is doing it wrong and obviously not capable of zoning. Stay permanently in lunge range of olaf, for example. I give you 2 minutes and you will recall if you are still alive. It is not realistic to expect that both hits of lunge will reliably hit the enemy, and that none hit of lunge is used for what it is made for (closing the gap, not as a damage tool). " Sure, sometimes you need to use the first Q to a minion but your second part of that paragraph makes no sense. What the hell are you talking about, staying within lunge range for 2 minutes of an Olaf? We've already established that you don't play and don't understand how to lane Fiora. But its not like you can't do an in lane gank when your laner is pushed up. Or simply gank the lane isn't warded so you can Q from the river bush. Both options don't require you to blow Q on a minion first if the enemy doesn't know you are there. Your second part makes no sense unless you are talking about laning Fiora and while Olaf is a bad matchup, its not the worst nor unique to maxing Q first on Fiora. "Also, your scenario is one of many scenarios out there. In a straight up 1on1 (with an enemy jumping on you), you can and will get far ahead with maxing W for the guaranteed proc and, due to the kind of exchange you are in for, you will land more autoattacks, making maxing W the better option with each hit." I assume you are talking about counterjungling in which case, Fiora is probably screwed regardless of what she maxes first. Good 1 v1 counterjunglers like Shaco or Lee Sin are going to destroy Fiora. If you are talking about middle or late game 1v1s, Fiora still doesn't win on a straight sit and smack each other fight with many bruisers so you shouldn't be trying to engage that way anyways. "For jungling speed i agree, it doesn't make you much faster, but as soon as you have madreds it's not that big of a difference, approximately 3-4 seconds per camp if you are REALLY unlucky with procs. To snowball, i personally need kills with fiora when jungling. That's why i prefer ganking over farming as my method of acquiring gold. I sometimes find myself not even building wriggles when i got some early feed, just to keep snowballing for my ganks. " Sure I don't get Wriggles either because I run lifesteal quints. But if you are ganking often, that only further my first paragraph's argument that all of the previous calculations are assuming R's 2.4 bonus AD ratio. By maxing W first, you are losing out on burst and ability to stick to a target from Q which is more important which ganks than sustained damage from W. "For sticking power, i tend to rush a bildgewater cutlass (i even did that before the recent changes, now even more because of the reduced price tag). When Q is maxed, it's CD is down to 8 seconds. My ganks usually don't last that long after using lunge for the first time, so i couldn't make use of it even if i wanted to. So the only reason to max it would be damage, and i just showed you in the beginning that your calculation is kinda lacking in that aspect as you took abilities only into consideration." Sure, I get Bilgewater first usually as well but you aren't going to have it early game, nor is it always going to be off cooldown if you gank often. Simply because you have an itemized slow doesn't mean additional sticking power isn't needed. Secondly you've pointed out the flaw in your initial arguments. Ganks don't last long after the initial Q + AA + Q + AA combo. You aren't going to get 7 auto-attacks off on the opponent unless they are severely overextended in which case they are going to be dead anyways. So lets summarize. Maxing Q is almost always better for burst. Maxing W is better for sustained damage but ganks don't last long. Ask anyone else who jungles Fiora whether 7+ autoattacks is realistic for a gank. Its usually not. Then consider the 7 auto-attacks are considering a full combo with R available which is on a long cooldown. Q is better against ranged opponents and people who can kite Fiora which you haven't contested. You haven't contested that you don't play lane Fiora so you forfeit that discussion. W remains a much more unreliable damage source than Q. Sometimes losing half of Q's damage to jump to a minion is still a lot more reliable than W's enemy reliant damage that assumes they don't just use a skill, bait it, or you mistime it. But before you respond to this post, remember the initial point of contentions. You claimed maxing W was correct all of the time. If I have proved that Q is better in even 1% of the any situations, then you were wrong. Q is better and more reliable burst within a short period of time, both our calculations show that. Q is more versatile and useful against non-auto-attack opponents and ranged opponents. W is more useful against auto-attack opponents. Therefore, You should come to the understanding that Fiora's skill order is situational and not set in stone. Your initial claims were wrong.